Should you use repelling magnets instead of a coil spring in your next device? I thought about that too Lester. (888) 582-0822, TRAMP METAL GROUP:
:-). Design, Develop, And Produce Innovative Magnetic Products. We noticed something that was odd about the maximum pull force when the magnets are fully compressed.
Interesting idea, but has anyone thought about the.
:-) ). During this testing, we noticed that the spacing between the magnets wasnt even. If your business is tax exempt, learn more. You can extract it*, and then the magnet will need to be remagnetized. I've no idea how old that box is - I'm still playing it after owning it for over 25 years and never had another spring breakage. To get a quick idea of what magnets could do, we built something we could stand on. Spring magnets pairs are programmed to attract at a distance until they pass the zero-force transition point (a specific and engineered distance) at which point they will repel and hold position at that distance. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. !? The truth about magnets is an elusive and demanding harlot of a vixen, but *SO* very seductive, inciting you into trying all kinds of crazy things. These cookies do not store any personal information. Please check our Privacy Policy to see what we'll do with your information. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. Its weaker in the first 3/4 of travel, then gets stronger at the end. By using our website and services, you expressly agree to the placement of our performance, functionality and advertising cookies. The magnet force doesnt increase in a straight line like the spring. High-strength magnets are very fragile and also lose power at temperatures above 175 F. That's got to be one of the dumbest ideas I've seen in a while. I think there are 2 main variables - the strength (size) of magnets used in the first place, and their distance from each other. FBIlK1;s#|dMU/*%[M{v\3v~)?\ There are many of pros and cons using springy magnets in such situations. If a problem is worth solving, its worth solving wrongly, so more magnets were added. Industrial Magnetics, Inc. - Making Things Better, Home / Mag-Mate / Smart-Mags / Spring Magnets. Now were getting even more force, but the overall travel is less than the old coil spring. Spring Polymagnets are produced in matched pairs and rest at an equilibrium distance apart. All orders placed & paid online by 1PM ET (M-F) will be shipped the same day! Does Library Bloat Make Your Smartphone App Look Fat? In over 50 years of playing a veriety of boxes I have never broke a spring so reliability does not seem to be a problem for me anyway. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Theres also a video, you can check that out below. This design note goes into detail about spring Polymagnets, which rest at a defined distance apart from each other, repel when pushed together and attract when pulled apart. Magnets may show some use in target rifle trigger. Magnetic springs offer a constant force over their entire working range and they dont need electricity at all. Hohner Morgane D/G, pre-Erica Hohner in C/F and G/C. I have a mental bloch on the theory, but it strikes me that a "magnetic spring" involves a magnet under the button, and however small, this will add inertia to it. *) For example, wrap a wire around it connected to a load. How did that work? Theo "really understands" magnets (and melodeons! Is it possible to fit an exponential function to fit a linear function? probably increases your hit chance about as much as the gravitation between you and the bullet, magazine feed using magnets instead of springs. Later we figured out how to make stronger ones and along with that strength came a special bonus. Ficara has added details to 125KHz tag reader and contactless lock. Get HUUGE Planet sized magnets. Below is a video demonstration and an animation of the Spring Polymagnet function. How long one can expect to use 2 magnets like here before they wont repulse each other? Magnets are dipoles, which actually follow inverse CUBED law. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. Is it possible? No, it is not. If the magnets are pulled apart, they try to pull together. Why Fedora Decided To Give CC0 Licensed Code The Boot, Where Pollution Hits The Road: The Growing Environmental Hazard Of Rubber Tires, The Surprisingly Manual Process Of Building Automotive Wire Harnesses, Biomimetic Surfaces: Copying Nature To Deter Bacteria And Keep Ship Hulls Smooth. We took a 2.938 long spring and squished it into an opening that was only 2.4. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. it probably uses neodymium magnets nice but doesn't it increase the chance of getting hit if your enemy uses bullets with steel core ? Heat and Vibration are enemies of magnets. We want there to be some force right at the beginning of the travel. Its very weak, and doesnt start increasing until close to the end. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Local: (231) 582-3100
The title of the article asks if magnets can replace the spring in a pogo stick. It worked like any pogo stick would. Accordez-vous donc, c'est si beau, l'accordon. With a coiled spring the force is constant over the distance of compression. If the magnets are stored alone, they should be fine indefinitely. The flute example that I gave shows that the theory is fine but then on a flute, the pads are push closed, rather than push open. Check out our spring catalogue and if you have a visionary project in mind contact us so we help you design your perfect spring. So we come to this fascinating case of native content(amusing, veiled advertising) from a store that sells really, really powerful magnets. In theory, yes. ???? 2}w(HAd=RYAAv fKG K&J Magnetics, Inc. will process your credit card order quickly, easily and securely. Why? By clicking Accept All, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. Electrolytes, Theyre What Dehydrated Hackaday Writers Crave! The force follows a simple, linear equation: The force (F) equals the spring constant (k) multiplied by the distance the spring is compressed (x). Email: imi@magnetics.com, AUTOMATION GROUP:
The answer, of course, is no, but it does provide a fascinating look at linear versus exponential growth. There could be interactions? But a lack of understanding of the basic forces of nature never stopped anyone, so the folks at K & J Magnetics made a really neat test. If you squish this spring by 1, you expect the force to be 8 lb. I had a paintball gun that used stackable magnets as a trigger return spring, as it was very easy to configure trigger tension and feel this way. would they demagnetise with age and/or use or if doing nothing for long periods or do they keep their "charge" or whatever its called indefinately?? Uh okay. )* and should be listened to! Another unique attribute of spring Polymagnets is that they dampen vibrations from one magnet to the other. We got our hands on an old coil-spring pogo stick and measured the strength of its spring. Compress the spring 1/2, and the force should be 4 lb. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. (888) 582-0821, WALKER MAGNETICS:
Magnets do impose fields upon each other so I suppose if the imposed fields are stronger than the hardness of the magnets, it could weaken them. hb```f``:00Xc,qN9
Not only doesnt it feel right, it doesnt perform well either. Re: "It's been my personal experience that the force actually increases over the length of compressing a coil spring.". Easy. Our adult weight compressed it by about 2". Yeah. This raises up the force even more, but its still dramatically weaker than the spring over most of the range of travel. So the absolute minimum number of points in any magnetic analysis is four mono-poles (two N and two S) If you double the distance between each pair, you do cut the forces between them by a quarter (assuming the distance between mated mono-poles is <<<<< the distance between magnetic pairs) but the cancelling effect from distant opposite mono-poles being further away also comes into play taking a k/(d^2) equation and more or less converting it to a k/(d^3) equation. In practicenot necessarily. When the field vanishes you will get a very small amount of power delivered to the load. (Unfortunately very few know that.) Thats not fair to the spring, though, since the next half-inch of travel doubles the energy it stores. Consider the pogo stick pressed down with the spring fully compressed. A pogo stick that emulates a spring using electric motor should be possible. However, you may visit "Cookie Settings" to provide a controlled consent. Fix Old Caps, But Keep That Can Capacitor Look, New OS For Commodore 64 Adds Modern Features, PERSEUS-9, The Dual-6502 Portable Machine That Should Have Been, Hackaday Prize 2022: Soviet Geiger Counter Gets WiFi. Why is this so? Phone: (800) 662-4638
Distance, where the energy in the spring is shown by the area under the line. Return to General How-To & Discussion. Learn more. author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners". I think that Sandy's point is a good one. If we only consider the travel between 0 and 1, the energy stored in the compressed magnets is nearly the same as the spring. Place cylindrical magnet around moving portion. To investigate this topic in more detail without a lot of expensive and dangerously powerful magnets, we created a small scale model, roughly 1/8 the size. 108 0 obj
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What magnets should be used to replace a given spring? The spring constant (k) of our spring is about 8 lb/in. You are touching on a concept about magnets called hardness.
The more magnets we add, the less travel we get in the pogo stick. ". hRJ1y[7[ 
Magnetic keepers (you see them mostly on old horseshoe magnets) wouldnt be necessary otherwise. ), Some slightly un-scientific measurements (ie used TSMB's kitchen scales), Oakwood Model 4, Castagnari Dony, Castagnari Tommy, Baffetti Binci, Hohner Preciosa, Melos, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses. Instrument Design, Construction and Repair, Topic: Magnets instead of button springs (Read 9958 times), Quote from: squeezy on March 25, 2012, 07:53:53 PM, Quote from: squeezy on March 25, 2012, 08:44:37 PM, http://www.matitflutes.com/04keywork.html, Quote from: Theo on March 25, 2012, 10:37:20 PM, SimplePortal 2.3.5 2008-2012, SimplePortal. Festeezio liked DIY Beam-on-Target Fusion Particle Accelerator. I most definitely do not understand magnets at all and am full of admiration for those that do. Do you want that inside your gun? We'd obviously use non magnetic material for the lever etc, but I have just a slight niggle about all these N/S poles in close proximity. (800) 962-4738. Not so. As a coil spring is squished, the force increases. Robert Kardos liked IS31FL3741 Breakout Board (PMOD). Magnets are more expensive than coil springs, but you can have them act across an air gap. How much of a magnetic field a permanent magnet can tolerate is dependent on the material its made out of. Can it be done? It worked well. Hot necessarily under the button, it could be under the lever but closer to the axle, where movement is less and magnet could be smaller. Hackaday Podcast 179: Danger Chess, Corona Motors, An Omni-Walker, And A Fast Talking Telescope, This Week In Security: Symbiote, Smart Locks, And CosmicStrand, Your Own Engineering Workstation, With Mame. The bigger the area, the more energy, the higher we bounce. (Scientists like to apply the Ising model to describe this dynamic which is appropriate for the most part. You will receive an e-mail indicating expected ship date once the order has been processed. How far will he shoot up when the spring is released? There is a little bit of potential energy in a magnet. We don't know. Playing with it, something is obvious right away. A pogo stick is simply a spring with a set of handles and footholds that is the subject of a great number of hilarious YouTube videos, at least one of which is impressive. What exactly would the magnets get you that a normal spring couldn't do?
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Also, based on their numerous YouTube videos, they are not beyond abusing a magnet or two for the purpose of science. Polymagnet is a trademark of Correlated Magnetics Research. Otherwise you are relying on the repulsion of the under-button magnet to hold it shut when at its weakest (ie when the N and S are furthest away) . We probably should have chosen a more pro-magnet application! 6~v`LM1NX8#I\Xk"6Y+GkH=PJ^)LJ }L@0#qd~S8|_8O0iCdi
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xy|U8z=[u:{uh Interesting idea. Making a steel spring is incredibly cheap compared to the expenses in making a neodymium magnet strong enough to do the same job. I wonder what it is that makes spring breakage a problem for some and not for others?
Do they give you the performance you want where you need it? Its the case with articles asking if Millennials are responsible for all of the worlds ills, or if some technology is the future. If 2 magnets repel with some force, 3 is a little less, but 4 is a little more 3, but 5 is a little less than 4, etc. You will be emailed a one-time, temporary password. Common sense says yes. Attempted solution: Place large magnet in moving portion. Copyright 2007-2022 - Industrial Magnetics, Inc. - All Rights Reserved. Remember what we said about the energy being the area under the curve? You dont have to be a mathematician to see that the area under this magnet curve is substantially lower! Festeezio liked DIY Watch with WiFi and Audio. They will rest at a defined distance apart from each other, repel when pushed together and attract when pulled apart. Magnets, on the other hand, obey the inverse square law. The physics of a pogo stick is determined entirely by Hookes Law, and is a linear equation, not counting the strength of a spring and the yield point of steel, but this is a pogo stick were talking about. The two gaps in the middle look smaller than the outer gaps. Theres not much force at all in the first half-inch of travel. Spring polymagnets should be constrained in at least one dimension to function properly.
Hooke's law is a principle of physics that states that the force needed to extend or compress a spring by some distance is proportional to that distance. A place for general potato gun questions and discussions. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. When the inner poles of the inner array align with the south poles of the outer array, the magnetic spring applies zero torque and lies in a stable position. Industrial Magnetics and Making Things Better are Registered Trademarks of Industrial Magnetics, Inc. STANDARD SHIPPING: This product usually ships from our facility within 2-3 business days. How Does The James Webb Telescope Phone Home? Any one out there experience this? ry
Cofz@a7N\|QHyy9b)we'!XEob/" I&"{3#e'cb"? Does their repulsive force diminish with time? Your shop teacher was right.
Bergflodt D/G 4 voice, Saltarelle Bouebe D/G, Super Preciosa D/Em, Hohner Impiliput B/C+C#. Scientists arent fond of common sense. I just learned along the way that magnetic field follow inverse cubed relationship rather than inverse squared. If the world knew just how much playing around with magnets and simulations of magnets Ive done, they would consider putting me away until they realized Im not doing anything dangerous. Besides, issues such as noise, unwanted vibrations and wear are also solved with magnetic springs because they are a silent as well as profitable technology. Don't try to cheat it unless you like the idea of the vixen I just mentioned biting you. We calculated that the force at the full 7" travel is over 500 lb! Interestingly all magnets used to decay fairly quickly given the state-of-the-art tech back then. I don't think this would be a good idea, especially in a steel pistol. We get a bit less force at the fully compressed position, but it increases the force along more of the pogo sticks travel. Magnets would obey the inverse square if there were magnetic monopoles. My boxes tend to get a hard life, playing in fairly loud ceilidh bands and outdoors for morris. This setup with two magnets is less than 2.8 inch-pounds (0.32 joules). View Full Version : Why aren't there magnetic recoil "springs?". The magnets rest at a defined distance apart from each other and repel when pushed.
This causes some partial demagnetization of the stator, reducing the maximum torque the motor can produce. "It could be that the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others" unknown. The only spring I've ever broken in about 35 years of playing was a bass spring on a 2nd-hand Hohner 4-stop 1-row. ( I have however never done this conciously in order to prolong spring life! Spring pairs can serve as a vibration isolation device acting as an efficient low-pass filter across a range of frequencies and mass. vBulletin v3.8.11, Copyright 2000-2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc. Why aren't there magnetic recoil "springs? I agree springs are a perfectly good solution already. ]=ccoX,T
. No. Can Magnets Replace The Spring In A Pogo Stick? Festeezio liked Hacking DVD for Sensing 0.000000001 to 1.1 Newton. No, no more than gravity decreases with time. This is really another way of asking how much energy is stored in the spring. The difference between the magnets vs. the coil spring is dramatic. As we add more and more magnets, the thickness of the magnets limits the overall travel of the stick. Theo, what do you think? For a pogo stick, it's pretty clear that magnets are not a good choice. For the 4, 5 and 6 magnet stacks, the outermost gaps tended to be a bit larger than the inner gaps. Have you ever played with magnets as a kid and run one through the sand and watch it pick up "fuzzy stuff"? Don't know about the dirt where you guys are, but around here if you stick a magnet in the garden, it'll come out with little bits of iron ore on it. :-) It is true that at the force between magnetic mono-poles does respect the inverse square law, there effectively is no such thing as a lone magnetic mono-pole so if you are going to think about a North mono-pole you must also think about its mated South mono-pole and of course if you are going to talk about the forces between objects you will need another pair of mono-poles to interact with. Magnetic springs provide high-speed motion using minimal energy, so they could be the perfect substitute for motors. A key measure of pogo stick performance is how much it shoots up into the air. The very obviously have weaker and stronger points when rolled around each other, where they want to stick in specific positions, despite the fact that theyre axially magnetized and should roll freely. What can we do to increase the strength, especially over a greater portion of the travel? Any cookies that may not be particularly necessary for the website to function and is used specifically to collect user personal data via analytics, ads, other embedded contents are termed as non-necessary cookies. Preloaded Coil Spring, Force vs. Got me thinking. This pattern turned up in a number of different scenarios we tried, beyond the one shown here. neo magnets lose strength as they are heated, so they wouldn't work in a gun. Fit inside a 3D-printed holder we made, we can bounce our miniature pogo stick. The takeaway from this experiment is extremely obvious in retrospect, but probably too subtle for a lot of people.
The way they feel and perform are not the same. We wanted to explore the differences in the behavior of springs vs. magnets. If high (such as in neodymium), a much stronger field is required to do the same thing. Might make a box slower. Four, five, and six magnets were added to the model pogo stick, and while six magnets gave this model pogo enough force to be bouncy, there simply wasnt enough space for the pogo stick to compress. Besides, I dont think exponential means what you think it means. What happens? I'm going to guess it is a cost factor. I think the main difficulty will be having them repelling enough to keep the pallets from opening under normal bellows pressures (I have this problem with some spring-equipped boxes with a light touch). As we add more magnets to the stack, the maximum pull force alternates up and down. This category only includes cookies that ensures basic functionalities and security features of the website. They are made by two pieces: a stator and a slider. Magnets arent a one-to-one replacement magnets behave differently than springs. Among others, Saltarelle Pastourelle II D/G; Hohner 4-stop 1-rows in C & G; assorted Hohners; 3-voice German (?) Each magnet repels any adjacent magnets. (or just plain amusement :-) ), . Magnets, on the other hand, obey the inverse square law. As with so many magnet answers, it depends. The forces involved in a real pogo stick are quite powerful, pushing with many hundreds of pounds of force. I personally think i, taking into account the added weight & probably cost - all those magnets produced in relatively small quantities would not come as cheap as 'standard' size magnets produced by the million. 114 0 obj
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We had a number of scrap, 2" diameter RY046 ring magnets available, so that seemed like a good place to start. Some have higher Currie points than others (the temperature at which a magnet looses its magnetism) Physical agitation as well as heat pound at the borders and potentially fragment magnetic domains within the magnet. (Comment Policy). Industrial Magnetics, Inc.
Ive got a simple solution. Higher speed implies a bigger motor, which in turn will consume more energy and cost much more. endstream
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You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. If your spring application needs a tight range where the force is delivered, magnets might be great. Some observers have described the behavior of the spring Polymagnet as a contactless attachment, which is a unique property in the world of mechanical engineering. Specifically, if the coercivity of a magnet is low (such as in alnico magnets), its magnetic domains can easily be realigned/scrambled by an external field. You dont get that nice, gradually increasing force of the coil spring. Ficara has added a new project titled 125KHz tag reader and contactless lock. firearms are generally relatively simple devices why would you want to complicate it? When fully compressed, the coil spring had a total energy of about 14.6 inch-pounds (1.65 joules). Well, it bottomed out and was an immensely disappointing pogo stick.
All my other boxes still have their full complements of original springs. Spring polymagnets work in pairs to simulate the functionality of a spring with compression and tension forces. Distance. With those youll move through such a small portion of the field it will appear linear. (not the same as the hardness of a stone with its 1-10 scale) Here hardness is a measure of how well a magnet keeps its magnetism. uP9bA yLVflJ",R~1f But that needs power and probably much power. Ill admit I like my magnets too much to do much studying about what happens when you abuse them but theres lots to know and learn there. 1385 S M 75 - Boyne City, MI 49712 USA
Is it the start of a good pogo stick replacement? Heat the magnet above the curie temperature. G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B/E Koch. vI Hv7P}@aIPFt3|gPAD%N|]=lV/X1Hwuc|~v[LCBm^;*>\x)lnF_mMn7n ~ ^s?[5f=MqU[O Were not going to focus on these comparisons here. DG Dino Baffetti Carnival II (plus accordions).
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g? By the way, just to save some pain and suffering, Earnshaw's theorem is not only proven mathematically, it is also demonstrated in reality as well. At least springs don't have to "move", just compress. Id like to point out the pogo stick was testing in a planet sized magnetic field. For a pogo stick, we dont want the spring to start with zero force. They act as a vibration isolation device across a range of mass and frequencies, which can be tuned for a specific application. Vibration isolation enables noise and vibration reduction with a wide range of potential applications. A simple mechanical spring from the hardware store seemed a good place to start.
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